Comments on: Morals of flooding http://www.russellquinn.com/blog/2007/07/24/morals-of-flooding/ Thu, 01 Jul 2010 08:55:31 -0700 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Joseph Dethrow http://www.russellquinn.com/blog/2007/07/24/morals-of-flooding/#comment-29 Joseph Dethrow Fri, 22 Feb 2008 22:02:45 +0000 http://www.russellquinn.com/?p=37#comment-29 May I suggest the following resource: http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/ConferenceMessages/ByDate/1476_Is_God_Less_Glorious_Because_He_Ordained_that_Evil_Be/ or http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByDate/2005/223_Where_Is_God/ May I suggest the following resource:

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/ConferenceMessages/ByDate/1476_Is_God_Less_Glorious_Because_He_Ordained_that_Evil_Be/

or

http://www.desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/Sermons/ByDate/2005/223_Where_Is_God/

]]> By: Haley http://www.russellquinn.com/blog/2007/07/24/morals-of-flooding/#comment-24 Haley Thu, 02 Aug 2007 13:55:38 +0000 http://www.russellquinn.com/?p=37#comment-24 I understand and appreciate your argument. I think it comes back to the idea that God created us to love Him, but real love is derived from a choice. Real love isn't creating drones who worship him. I don't think God is murderous and power hungry. We chose to worship self when given the free will to do so. God, therefore, deserves to punish us because he is a just God. He chose to instead in his grace offer a sacrifice for our transgressions in the life, death, and resurrection of his son. This demonstrated his justice and love and gave us a way back to him. Paul addresses the same questions from people in Romans chapter 9, and I have wrestled with the passage myself. He states that Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'. Does the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God , choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath - prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory?" That's a tough one, super tough, but it's the same question you're asking. I guess just know that one of the disciples themselves asked the same question. The conclusion he came to was that if God is what he says he is, just, good, perfect, and love then who am I to tell him he's wrong. That's probably just adds some fuel to your argument, but that's what the Bible says. I don't know Paul...what if? I understand and appreciate your argument.

I think it comes back to the idea that God created us to love Him, but real love is derived from a choice. Real love isn’t creating drones who worship him.

I don’t think God is murderous and power hungry. We chose to worship self when given the free will to do so. God, therefore, deserves to punish us because he is a just God. He chose to instead in his grace offer a sacrifice for our transgressions in the life, death, and resurrection of his son. This demonstrated his justice and love and gave us a way back to him.

Paul addresses the same questions from people in Romans chapter 9, and I have wrestled with the passage myself. He states that

Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’. Does the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use? What if God , choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath – prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory?”

That’s a tough one, super tough, but it’s the same question you’re asking. I guess just know that one of the disciples themselves asked the same question. The conclusion he came to was that if God is what he says he is, just, good, perfect, and love then who am I to tell him he’s wrong. That’s probably just adds some fuel to your argument, but that’s what the Bible says.

I don’t know Paul…what if?

]]> By: Russell http://www.russellquinn.com/blog/2007/07/24/morals-of-flooding/#comment-28 Russell Thu, 02 Aug 2007 07:17:16 +0000 http://www.russellquinn.com/?p=37#comment-28 <p>If God is a nice being then why did he build the possibility of imperfection into his creations and then torture them when they don't live up to his expectations? Your description appears to be of somebody with sadistic, murderous and power-hungry tendencies. I certainly wouldn't want him as a boss. I guess that's the part that confuses me - how people are prepared to jump to his defence (or rather a defence of their beliefs) and justify behaviour that they wouldn't tolerate from anyone else. Thanks for your comments though, I'm enjoying reading them.</p> <p>Thank you also for the book recommendation. I read The Screwtape Letters a few years ago and have been meaning to read his other similar books for a while now and you've just reminded me :)</p> If God is a nice being then why did he build the possibility of imperfection into his creations and then torture them when they don’t live up to his expectations? Your description appears to be of somebody with sadistic, murderous and power-hungry tendencies. I certainly wouldn’t want him as a boss. I guess that’s the part that confuses me – how people are prepared to jump to his defence (or rather a defence of their beliefs) and justify behaviour that they wouldn’t tolerate from anyone else. Thanks for your comments though, I’m enjoying reading them.

Thank you also for the book recommendation. I read The Screwtape Letters a few years ago and have been meaning to read his other similar books for a while now and you’ve just reminded me :)

]]> By: Haley http://www.russellquinn.com/blog/2007/07/24/morals-of-flooding/#comment-27 Haley Thu, 02 Aug 2007 03:52:28 +0000 http://www.russellquinn.com/?p=37#comment-27 God set rules so that we could see that we are imperfect and have a need for him. In the old testament the Israelites asked for the law and God provided the 10 commandments so that we may see how we have fallen short of God's perfect standard, and become more aware of what life apart from God (a life of sin) looks like. His perfect world did not include pain or destruction, the human race brought that upon themselves when we chose a life apart from God. God allows raging storms, and brokenness in our world because that's the life that we as humans have chosen when we didn't choose him. If you want a solid philosophical answer I would really suggest reading CS Lewis's The Problem of Pain. Here's some of what he says Pain removes the veil; it plants the flag of truth within the fortress of a rebel soul. Try to exclude the possibility of suffering which the order of nature and the existence of free-wills involve, and you find that you have excluded life itself. God set rules so that we could see that we are imperfect and have a need for him. In the old testament the Israelites asked for the law and God provided the 10 commandments so that we may see how we have fallen short of God’s perfect standard, and become more aware of what life apart from God (a life of sin) looks like. His perfect world did not include pain or destruction, the human race brought that upon themselves when we chose a life apart from God. God allows raging storms, and brokenness in our world because that’s the life that we as humans have chosen when we didn’t choose him.

If you want a solid philosophical answer I would really suggest reading CS Lewis’s The Problem of Pain.

Here’s some of what he says
Pain removes the veil; it plants the flag of truth within the fortress of a rebel soul.

Try to exclude the possibility of suffering which the order of nature and the existence of free-wills involve, and you find that you have excluded life itself.

]]> By: Russell http://www.russellquinn.com/blog/2007/07/24/morals-of-flooding/#comment-26 Russell Wed, 01 Aug 2007 10:31:45 +0000 http://www.russellquinn.com/?p=37#comment-26 Hi Joanne. Thanks for your comment. So, you believe that God has set rules so strict that they make everyone a sinner by default - therefore he is entitled to kill anyone he likes at any point. But rather than just doing away with everyone, he just takes a few now and again, in the hope that the rest of us will learn how to live better lives? Hi Joanne. Thanks for your comment. So, you believe that God has set rules so strict that they make everyone a sinner by default – therefore he is entitled to kill anyone he likes at any point. But rather than just doing away with everyone, he just takes a few now and again, in the hope that the rest of us will learn how to live better lives?

]]> By: Joanne Pillinger http://www.russellquinn.com/blog/2007/07/24/morals-of-flooding/#comment-25 Joanne Pillinger Wed, 01 Aug 2007 10:19:45 +0000 http://www.russellquinn.com/?p=37#comment-25 Well, everyone in the world is a sinner. We all sin everyday, whether we consciously think about it or not. When such disasters happen God either has plans to see people turn to Him in time of need or He is wanting people to realise exactly what's important to them in life...making them review their situation and how they've been living. That is what I honestly believe... Well, everyone in the world is a sinner. We all sin everyday, whether we consciously think about it or not. When such disasters happen God either has plans to see people turn to Him in time of need or He is wanting people to realise exactly what’s important to them in life…making them review their situation and how they’ve been living. That is what I honestly believe…

]]> By: Russell http://www.russellquinn.com/blog/2007/07/24/morals-of-flooding/#comment-23 Russell Mon, 30 Jul 2007 16:27:37 +0000 http://www.russellquinn.com/?p=37#comment-23 I like how Tom seems so miserable. I like how Tom seems so miserable.

]]> By: lucy http://www.russellquinn.com/blog/2007/07/24/morals-of-flooding/#comment-22 lucy Mon, 30 Jul 2007 16:19:19 +0000 http://www.russellquinn.com/?p=37#comment-22 I was barely an excuse, simply a brushing aside of the point. It was Canon David Winter, he's done a couple about natural disasters, but i'm yet to see what Canon Honey has to say about it. I was barely an excuse, simply a brushing aside of the point.
It was Canon David Winter, he’s done a couple about natural disasters, but i’m yet to see what Canon Honey has to say about it.

]]> By: Russell http://www.russellquinn.com/blog/2007/07/24/morals-of-flooding/#comment-21 Russell Mon, 30 Jul 2007 07:55:20 +0000 http://www.russellquinn.com/?p=37#comment-21 Is that a thinly disguised pro-pantheism comment? i.e. we are 'god', the elements are out of our control, or is it just another i-can-always-come-up-with-an-excuse approach? Is that a thinly disguised pro-pantheism comment? i.e. we are ‘god’, the elements are out of our control, or is it just another i-can-always-come-up-with-an-excuse approach?

]]> By: lucy http://www.russellquinn.com/blog/2007/07/24/morals-of-flooding/#comment-20 lucy Mon, 30 Jul 2007 06:53:00 +0000 http://www.russellquinn.com/?p=37#comment-20 <p>To paraphrase monday 30th's Thought for the Day "god is primarily concerned with us, and the elements are simply part of the way the world works"</p> To paraphrase monday 30th’s Thought for the Day “god is primarily concerned with us, and the elements are simply part of the way the world works”

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